- Joshua Frank is an American progressive journalist and
noted anti-war columnist. His articles and commentaries have appeared on
CounterPunch, Z Magazine, AntiWar.com, Truthout and Alternet. He is author
of "Left Out! How Liberals Helped Reelect George W. Bush" and
co-editor with Jeffrey St. Clair of Red State Rebels: Tales of Grassroots
Resistance in the Heartland.
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- Joshua took part in an interview with me to discuss the
latest developments in the Middle East region, the Israeli-Palestinian
conflict, the prospect of Israel-U.S. relations, the recent controversy
over the Freedom Flotilla attack and the media propaganda against Iran.
Here is the complete text of our interview.
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- Kourosh Ziabari: What's the main reason behind the United
States' unconditional support for the state of Israel? In his early days
of assuming office, President Obama failed to address the international
community's concern regarding the Operation Cast Lead in which the Israeli
forces killed more than 1,300 Palestinian citizens. Moreover, it seems
that the United States has retreated from its stance regarding the ongoing
Israeli settlements on the Palestinian lands. Why is the relationship between
the United States and Israel so profound that makes Israel immune to international
law? Why is the United States always "committed" to the security
of Israel?
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- Joshua Frank: I believe that the U.S.'s seemingly unconditional
support of Israel is a complicated, multifaceted issue. First and foremost,
Israel is a strategic ally for the U.S. interests in the region. As you
know, there aren't many countries in the Middle East that support the United
States' military operations in Iraq and Afghanistan, nor do many countries
see much of the benefit of the U.S. companies' profiting from their imperial
resource extraction ventures. So Israel plays a powerful role in supporting
the U.S. in these endeavors, if not directly, then at least politically
and tactically. Military-wise, Israel is the most powerful country in the
area, with a large nuclear cache and airports the serve the U.S. military
uses often for its endeavors. After the Camp David Accords the U.S. Army
Corps of Engineers actually helped construct Israeli Air Bases in the Negev
Desert.
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- Likewise, Israel needs the U.S. to support its illegal
occupation of Palestinian territories. Without U.S. backing, the Israel
government could not afford its ongoing military forays. Indeed, the U.S.
also plays a substantial role in deflecting criticism of Israel's ongoing
human rights violations, whether by flexing muscle on the UN Security Council
or in the court of public opinion. Israel can most often rely on the U.S.
to support its actions, illegal or otherwise, be they the invasion on Lebanon
or the recent Flotilla attack. A lot of critics of Israel point their finger
solely at the pro-Israeli lobby in the U.S. as the primary reason behind
the U.S. close relationship to Israel. While the lobby is certainly strong,
the U.S. Empire is stronger, and in fact I would argue, actually uses the
Israel lobby to its benefit. It's a symbiotic relationship, and not entirely
one-sided as many Zionist-conspiracy theorists seem to argue.
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- KZ: Israel possesses up to 200 nuclear warheads and this
figure is confirmed by a number of international organizations, including
the Federation of American Scientists; however, it's Iran which is being
pressured over its nuclear program. How do the United States and its European
allies justify their double standards regarding Iran's nuclear program?
There's no proof that Iran has moved towards building nuclear weapons,
but everybody knows that the Israeli nuclear technician Mordecai Vanunu
has released the evidences which indicate that Israel has accumulated a
number of nuclear bombs in its arsenal. What's your idea?
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- JF: I think you sort of answered your own question. The
U.S. doesn't have to justify their double standards to anyone, especially
not the international community. It's also about how the western world
views itself, that our actions are always genuine and justified. Through
this distorted lens Israel can view itself as the victim and not the perpetrator.
So whereas Iran's alleged nuclear program, real or mythical, is seen as
a threat, Israel's existing arsenal that could detonate the entire Middle
East is for peace of mind, because you just never know when those darn
Arabs will attack for no reason at all!
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- It may sound ridiculous, sure, but there are many people
who follow this line of thinking. Of course, they can blame it on militant
strains of Islam, which certainly has its problems, but by and large the
outrage directed toward Israel is cross-sectional because so many of the
country's policies are overtly arrogant. Of course, even within the country
you have plenty of lively dissent, much of which does not get its due attention
in the mainstream press. Vanunu is one historical figure example of this
movement, a movement that is growing by the day.
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- KZ: Iran is under the spates of black propaganda by the
western mainstream media. The western media depict Iranian nation as a
backward, uncivilized and extremist people. How is it possible to acquaint
the western public with the unseen and concealed realities of Iran?
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- JF: I think the new media is already breaking through
this propaganda very effectively. I also believe there are plenty of people
in western countries that know governments don't always represent the interests
of the masses. The Iranian government is reckless to be sure, but that
doesn't mean all Iranians agree with every single policy; same story for
voting Jews that live in Israel. It is naiive to think all Jews support
the occupation of Palestine. Many do of course, but there are many that
also believe it is illegal, unjust and counterproductive to achieving peace
in the region.
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- The bigger issue is that Westerners are consistently
inundated with misinformation. The U.S. government for example, has to
continually sedate its citizens into compliance. It's brilliantly executed
time and again and it's the reason why the antiwar movement, for instance,
is virtually non-existent in this country at the moment. Even those that
oppose the escalation of war in Afghanistan are by and large silent. That
wasn't the case during the Bush era, where a surge in troop levels combined
failure of an exit strategy would have forced tens of thousands into the
streets. But since liberals and progressives now have their liberal Obama,
mums the word. They've been scared into complacency by the propaganda of
"change" and "hope". They are literally afraid to resist
the man they worked to hard to elect. It's a special kind of trepidation.
Meanwhile, the PATRIOT Act gets reaffirmed, billions more is passed for
war funding and U.S. soldiers continue to die in two endless, directionless
wars.
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- KZ: It seems that whoever wants to rise to prominence
as a potential choice for presidency in the United States should avow his
commitment to the security and stability of Israel, even at the cost of
killing thousands of people or destructing the other countries. As you
quoted him in one of your articles, Barack Obama had told a crowd of pro-Israeli
Americans that he would never put the military option off the table concerning
Iran's nuclear program. My question is that, is the Israeli lobby so powerful
and influential in the United States that even determines the destiny of
White House?
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- JF: It's bigger than that, I think. Like I said, it's
not the lobby that determines the destiny of the White House, it is the
Empire apparatus that does. For example, Obama, had he challenged U.S.
imperialism during his campaign and tenure in the Senate, would never have
been supported by the arms industry, the oil companies and the like. The
Israel lobby is just one of these major forces and shouldn't be viewed
in isolation. The energy cartels, I think, have just as much or even more
sway over the administration, as the catastrophe in the Gulf of Mexico
so boldly symbolizes. Same goes for the corporate GM food giants, the pharmaceutical
industry, military contractors among others. Ultimately it is about corporate
and military domination of public policy and the pro-Israel lobby is one
of the big players, but not the only one that holds the US government and
the U.S. people hostage.
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- KZ: Some analysts believe that Israel has paved the ground
for its growing isolation by unjustifiably attacking the Freedom Flotilla.
As an instance, the government of Nicaragua decided to sever its diplomatic
ties with Israel. What's your estimation? Will the state of Israel succeed
in getting through with this pivotal juncture safely?
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- JF: The Freedom Flotilla was a horrific, bloody episode
that will surely be notched up as another military defeat for Israel. Anytime
this sort of thing happens, Israel has to work overtime to save face. Previously,
and to a greater extent, I think the attack on Lebanon for dubious reasons
was also a blemish for Israel power. They ended up having to halt their
excursions and bombings because the international community by-and-large
believed their actions were not justified.
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- I think, as Alexander Cockburn and others have pointed
out, that this is an example of Israel's power rapidly dwindling. The fact
that Israel felt threatened by a Freedom Flotilla should be enough for
anyone to realize that their use of force was not only illegal under international
law, but unethical and a sign that they are losing the fight they started.
Such bullying acts won't win Israel many new supporters; it will only harden
its militarist admirers.
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- KZ: Israel's ambassador to the United States, Michael
Oren has called the IDF incursion into the Freedom Flotilla a human and
responsible action. He likened the massacre of civilians onboard the Freedom
Flotilla to the America's fight against the Nazi Germany in the Second
World War. What do you think about what he has said?
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- JF: Honestly I don't think much about it. Military talking
heads like Oren are pure vessels of propaganda. They will do whatever they
can, soul already sold, to defend Israeli military actions. Internationally
such rhetoric is taken at face value: never believe half of what Israel
taking heads say -- or any other political leaders for that matter -- who
spout in defense of such brutal actions. If anything, Oren is quite adept
at employing the very Nazi propaganda he so despises.
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- KZ: It's widely believed that the political regime of
Israel will immediately collapse should the White House lift its support
to Tel Aviv. Is it possible for Israel to survive without the U.S. backing?
Will the influence of Israeli lobby over the corporate government of the
United States allow any independent president to rise to power and oppose
to Israel ideologically?
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- JF: Israel would certainly survive without U.S. backing,
but in a much more modest capacity. As a supporter of a one state solution,
I don't believe any peace between Palestine and Israel will occur until
the U.S. takes a more brokered approach. If Israel makes concessions and
the U.S. backs off its monetary support, the international community will
ensure that a new Israel, one that is truly democratic and less economically
stratified, will survive in its place. I think that the American people
would support a candidate that spoke truth to power with regard to Israel.
They really haven't had a chance to do it. Would the lobby accept this?
Not likely, but nor would any of the other corporate and military powers
that capitalize on American intentions in the Middle East.
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- KZ: What do you think about the U.S. and UK mainstream
media which are said to be controlled by the Zionist owners and media moguls
such as Rupert Murdoch? How do these media outlets shape reach-out to their
international audiences and shape their opinions?
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- JF: Biased news and commentary is just that, biased,
and plenty of outlets spew gross lies and propaganda. However, the new
media is breaking ground every day. Here in the U.S. Glenn Greenwald's
analysis has become widely read, mainly because it's free and uncensored
on the web. As a result of his popularity, he is consistently being interviewed
in the mainstream press and on popular cable news programs. This is just
one example of alternative views making their way to the public. The freer
the media, the more informed the public and the less censorship that ultimately
occurs. So I'm hopeful that the Murdochs of the world will continually
be challenged by this new reality.
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- KZ: What's your prediction for the destiny of Israel
in the Middle East? With a U.S. government which offers its unconditional
support to Tel Aviv and the EU countries that follow the U.S. trajectory
passively, can Israel rescue itself from the growing isolation it's facing
internationally?
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- JF: Israel will have to make large and significant compromises
if it is to survive as a Jewish state. The world is watching their every
move very closely. Despite the media blackout and the power of pro-Israel
forces, the plight of Palestinians is being exposed daily, not only in
other countries, but within Israel itself. Israelis are not all in support
of the occupation and do not by any means believe it makes them any safer.
On the contrary, it makes them less safe.
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- The bigger question is, can the U.S. survive in its current
state? Can the U.S. continue to exploit the resources and people of the
Middle East for its own profit and greed? Can it abuse and exploit its
own people for much longer? I don't believe so. Our economy is crumbing
and our military is overextended and local budgets continue to dip into
the red. We simply cannot continue to expand U.S. Empire. And when the
U.S. Empire falls, Israel's power and ego will be deflated as well. Again,
it's a symbiotic relationship and intimately intertwined.
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- - Kourosh Ziabari is an Iranian freelance journalist
and media correspondent. His articles and interviews have appeared on Tehran
Times, Press TV, Global Research and Foreign Policy Journal. He has interviewed
Noam Chomsky, Vicente Fox, Peter D. Feaver, Carlos Latuff, Gilad Atzmon,
Kurt Wuthrich and Stephen Kinzer.
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