- The Nick Redfern Interview Interviewer
Irene Bott
-
- IB: Nick, I am sure many people interested
in the UFO subject will be aware that in TVís THE X FILES, Mulder
and Scully investigate FOs and paranormal phenomena for the FBI. Are you
saying in your book that THE X FILES is not entirely fiction?
-
- NR: Yes, absolutely. The situation is
this: the FBI have declassified approximately 3,000 pages of previously
- withheld files on UFOs and associated mysteries which cover the period
1947 to the early 1990s. More importantly, many of the real FBIís
UFO files reflect to quite an astonishing degree the sorts of things discussed
in THE X FILES.
-
- IB: What do you mean by that?
-
- NR: Well, perhaps I should start at the
beginning. In 1947, when sightings of UFOs - or flying discs and flying
saucers, as they were known at the time -began to be reported in large
numbers throughout the USA, the military approached the FBI with a view
to obtaining their assistance in both interviewing UFO witnesses to try
and determine if the people were genuine, mentally disturbed, or trying
to put over propaganda, and investigating UFO sightings in general. The
FBI werenít adverse to this; however, the boss of the FBI, J. Edgar
Hoover, would only agree to get involved if it was on a level which would
put the FBI on an equal footing with the military when it came to investigating
and collating UFO data.
-
- IB: What do the FBIís early UFO
files tell us?
-
- NR: OK. Itís clear from the FBIís
files of mid 1947, that within the FBI itself there were as many differing
opinions regarding the origins of the UFO mystery as there are amongst
the civilian UFO research community today! To give you an example, there
was a great deal of concern within the FBI that UFOs were possibly the
product of the Soviet Union, being based on classified technology captured
from the Nazis at the end of the Second World War. Similarly, there were
those FBI agents who suspected that the U.S. military itself was responsible
for the Saucers, and this was some type of super - secret American Government
project. And, of course, there were those in the FBI who favoured the alien
theory - that we were being visited by creatures form other worlds.
-
- IB: Can you give a few examples of the
early reports which the FBI received?
-
- NR: Sure. One such report concerned an
employee of the military who, in July 1947, had seen overflying a particular
air base three UFOs travelling at an impressive speed; more impressive,
however, was the fact that the UFOs were circular in shape and one of them
seemed to be ërollingí or ërotatingí in the sky
as it went along. Similarly, in the following month, the FBI picked up
on an incident involving a former Army Air Corps pilot who reported seeing
- and Iíll quote from the official report here - ëa bluish
white, flaming object over Philadelphia. And this is something reflected
in many of the early reports which the FBI received. Most of the witnesses
were highly qualified people. To give you a further example, also in August
1947, no less than twelve UFOs were seen flying in formation over Twin
Falls, Idaho, and once again there were credible observers, including serving
police officers with the Twin Fall Police Department. More importantly,
the witnesses were practically unanimous in their belief that what they
saw were - again, to quote the official FBI files - ëilluminated flying
saucersí. So these are the types of reports which the FBI received
in the late 1940ís and which led them to believe that something
real and very strange was taking place.
-
- IB: Can you give us a few examples of
the sorts of reports and investigations which the FBI found itself involved
in during the 1950ís?
-
- NR: Yeah. There were several UFO events
which concerned and took up some considerable time on the part of the FBI
in the 1950ís.
-
- From the late 40's through to the early
50's, the FBI was heavily implicated in something called Project Twinkle
- a project designed to monitor and identify strange, green fireball -
type objects which were being repeatedly seen in the vicinity of U.S. atomic
energy installations in New Mexico, and at a later date in other parts
of the country. Interestingly enough, official FBI papers detail a number
of soundly argued reasons why the fireballs weren't natural phenomena;
and in my book I speculate that this was possibly an attempt on the part
of the UFO intelligence to monitor our early atomic energy research.
-
- What else was the FBI involved in apart
from Project Twinkle in the 1950's?
-
- NR:All sorts of things. As you know,
in June and July 1952, there were major UFO encounters in and around the
Washington DC area, and UFOs were seen by pilots - both civil and military
- and UFOs were tracked on both airborne and ground radar. Well, following
these encounters, the FBI demanded an up-dated briefing from the Air Force
- not just on the Washington sightings but on the UFO subject in general.
And the results of that briefing make for very, very interesting reading.
-
- IB: In what way?
-
- NR: The FBI were informed officially
in 1952 by the Air Force that there was a percentage of all UFO reports
which simply defied explanation and which originated with credible people
such as military pilots. More importantly, the FBI was informed that in
a number of those cases there was additional back-up from ground observers
and radar traces. So it's clear that this was an admittance to the FBI
from the military that unknown objects were violating U.S. airspace and
were being seen in the air at exactly the same time that they were being
tracked on radar. I'll quote you here a very pertinent statement made to
the FBI by the Air Force in that briefing: 'Some military officials are
seriously considering the possibility of interplanetary ships.' To me,
that speaks volumes.
-
- IB: What else can you tell us about that
time period?
-
- NR: One case which springs to mind is
that of someone described in the FBI's files as a Miss Richards who saw
a UFO - described by the FBI as being 25 feet from the ground, appeared
to be spinning, was bright as though containing a series of lights in a
zigzagging pattern and was at least as wide as the highway - at very close
quarters in 1956 whilst driving along a public highway with her fianc=E9e.
What was important about this case was that the witness was actually in
the employ of the FBI at the Washington DC headquarters and was described
as being one of the FBI best employees! Needless to say, there is a substantial
amount of paperwork on this case.
-
- IB: Weren't some of the so-called Contactees
like George Adamksi and George Van Tassel investigated by the FBI in the
1950's and 1960's?
-
- NR: That's right. Adamski is the subject
of an FBI file which is close on 100 pages in length; whilst Van Tassel's
file amounts to about 200 pages. Again, FBI agents went to extraordinary
lengths to inform themselves of the claims of Adamski, Van Tassel and a
number of the other contactees including George Williamson and Truman Bethurum.
Now, today, it's quite unfashionable to talk about human-like aliens from
Venus who desired an end to the arms race etc - and this was a staple part
of contactee lore - but the FBI were heavily concerned by the claims of
the contactees. The FBI, for example, were well acquainted with Adamski's
claims about meeting aliens in the desert; and regarding Van Tassel, would
dispatch agents to attend his lectures and conferences. In fact, it's quite
astonishing just how well informed the FBI were and there are reams of
files which I've reproduced in the book detailing the FBI's knowledge of
where people such as Adamski claimed the aliens originated, why they were
here and even the type of government they allegedly had!
-
- IB:This takes us through to the 1960's,
doesn't it?
-
- NR:Yes, it does.
-
- IB:We know that the U.S. Air Force officially,
at least got out of the UFO subject with the close of Project Blue Book
in 1969. Did the FBI do the same?
-
- NR:Largely, yes. But there was another
mystery waiting in the wings for them - namely the cattle mutilations.
For decades, numerous reports have surfaced throughout North America where
cattle have been found mutilated and killed under very strange circumstances
- blood and organs have been removed by someone or something with presumed
surgical skills. There have even been reports where the animals organs
have been removed with laser-type technology. Most important of all, there
are many accounts on record where UFOs, black helicopters, and even alien
creatures have been seen in the vicinity of mutilation sites and I cite
in the book the testimony of those who suspect that the cattle mutilations
are the result of some type of alien harvesting operation.
-
- IB: Are there many FBI files on cattle
mutilations?
-
- NR:Oh, yes. About 400 pages at least;
and this is just the declassified material. There are literally dozens
of such reports on file with the FBI which originated with a number of
U.S. state police departments which, as far as I'm concerned, fully confirm
that the cattle mutilations are not the work of predators, as some have
suggested.
-
- IB:Can you give an example?
-
- NR:One such New Mexico State Police report
which springs to mind dates from 1976 and includes all the staple parts
of a classic animal mutilation including: the discovery of a dead and mutilated
cow; strange pod marks found on the ground as if something had followed
the cow; raised radiation readings; the removal from the cow's body of
vital organs; the discovery at the site of some strange liquid which defied
official examination; and most interesting of all, a scorched area of ground
which gave every impression that some type of structured object had landed
at the site. Now, I would fully agree with people who say that this sounds
bizarre; but the key point is that this all comes from official files released
by the FBI.
-
- IB: We've seen that the FBI received
a large number of good quality UFO reports over the years - not to mention
the cattle mutilation files of the 70's - but what of the claims about
crashed UFOs? Are there any reports in the FBI files of crashed UFOs, dead
aliens and so on
-
- NR: Probably more than you would imagine!
There is a very interesting hand -written entry in one of the 1947 files
from J. Edgar Hoover complaining that the military wouldn't allow the FBI
access to a recovered flying disc and this is almost certainly a reference
to the UFO recovered at Roswell. Similarly, in the early 1950's the FBI
went to extraordinary lengths to try and determine the truth surrounding
the alleged crash and recovery by the military of a UFO at Aztec, New Mexico.
Now, the Aztec crash has today been largely discredited; however, the story
does include many of the key ingredients of Roswell, such as: the crashed
UFO, small, dead alien bodies recovered at the crash site and on. The FBI
also picked up on numerous rumours doing the rounds amongst the military
in Washington to the effect that, in the 1950's, the U.S. Government had
acquired the remains of three crashed UFOs and their crews. As far as crashed
UFOs and the FBI are concerned, things went pretty much quiet then until
the late 1980's when the Majestic 12 documents surfaced from an anonymous
- and presumed insider source.
-
- IB:Can you expand on this?
-
- NR:Yeah, no problem. The MJ12 papers
are essentially a group of documents which purport to be a 1952 briefing
for President Eisenhower informing him of the crash and recovery of an
extraterrestrial spacecraft and crew near Roswell, New Mexico in 1947.
Now, if the MJ12 papers are genuine, then they were leaked unofficially
and in violation of U.S. national secrecy laws and it was here where the
FBI had jurisdiction to get involved. The FBI approached a number of agencies,
such as the Air Force and the Defence Intelligence Agency, in an attempt
to unravel the truth behind MJ12, but as powerful as the FBI was and is,
even they had to admit defeat; the main reason being that there were so
many secret levels within government it was impossible to get a straight
and complete answer. In other words, if there is or was an MJ12 group and
I for one believe there was and is then access to their data must be limited
to an incredibly small and select body of individuals. But if it relates
to actual crashed UFOs and dead alien bodies, then this isn't surprising,
and it's not surprising that the FBI wouldn't be entrusted with the facts
either.
-
- IB: How do you sum up your findings on
the FBI's UFO involvement?
-
- NR: Well, it's clear from the 3,000 or
so pages which have been declassified and which cover the late 1940's to
almost the present day, that the FBI has had deep and on-going involvement
in all manner of UFO - related activity. The cattle mutilations, MJ12,
crashed UFOs, dead aliens, military and civil pilot reports of UFOs, and
the many contactee accounts taken as a whole point to deep and long lasting
involvement in the UFO subject on the FBI's part. And as remarkable as
it may seem, there really are equivalents at the FBI of Mulder and Scully
whose job it is to look into the various issues I've discussed above; and
in the words of The X-Files, the truth really is out there - and it's in
my book, too!
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- Photo of Nick Redfern available at http://www.camelot-group.com/hotgossip/unexgoss.html
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