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- WASHINGTON (CNN) - A $675
million lawsuit stemming from the deaths of some 80 Branch Davidians at
Waco, Texas, in 1993 went to trial Monday.
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- The defendant is the federal government, which says it
was justified in using armed force to end a 51-day standoff with the Branch
Davidians, a Christian apocalyptic sect.
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- The plaintiffs are about 100 family members of the sect
members who died, among whom were sect leader David Koresh and 17 children.
The families allege the government used excessive force throughout the
standoff, which began on February 28, 1993 and ended on April 19, 1993.
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- The Waco Murders made me ill. Even if the families win
this trail, it's not enough. All the cover-ups and deaths after the Branch
Davidian was set on fire, makes one one wonder..as David Koresh asked,
What are they doing?
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- Here is the last conversation of David Koresh with FBI
before his firey death:
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- Narration: This tape contains the last recorded words
of David Koresh. It's taken from telephone conversations between David
Koresh and the FBI negotiators. It was recorded by the government, and
the tapes were recently released by the Justice Department. The tape has
two segments. The first is from April 16 - a Friday. It is from the wee
hours of the morning, and David has just optimistically reported to the
FBI negotiator that he's finished the first chapter, or segment of his
manuscript on the Seven Seals of the book of Revelation. He had pledged
on the previous Wednesday, and sent out a signed legal agreement, that
he would exit the Mt. Carmel Center upon completion of the manuscript.
The tone of the conversation is quite optimistic and upbeat, both from
David's side and from the side of the FBI listening to his report. Click
here for source and other Koresh documents.
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- Koresh: . . . I say that when I get through writing these,
and they're given to my attorney, and my attorney hands them over - What's
the two theologians names?
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- Steve Schneider: Ah - Philip Arnold and Jim Tabor.
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- Koresh: Philip Arnold and Jim Tabor who has shown that
they have a sincere interest in these things - you see? Then I can spend
all my time in jail, and people can go ahead and ask me all the stupid
questions they want - cause they're not gonna ask me about the seals. They're
gonna say, "Ah, do you molest young ladies?" "Ah, have you
eaten babies?" "Do you sacrifice people?" "Ah, do you
make automatic weapons?" "Ah, do you have [unintelligible]"
That's what they're gonna be interested in - sensationalism.
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- FBI: That's why you need to get it done before you leave
there then.
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- Koresh: That's why I'm gonna complete it, because you
see, you know as well as I do that people in this world they want something
dramatic and sensational. They don't want to have to sit - No one's gonna
sit there - and let me sit there in front of a camera and read Psalms 40
to them - to prove the first seal. Dick, it's a real world, and that's
why I'm sympathetic with your position. I realize you're frustrated, and
I agree with you.
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- FBI: I'm not frustrated. I went home and I'm back. I'm
no longer frustrated. I never was frustrated.
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- Koresh: Did you take a shower for me?
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- FBI: Well, yeah. I took a couple of them for you.
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- Koresh: Thank you. I appreciate it.
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- FBI: Now listen. Let's get back to the point in hand.
This ah - you know - the writing of the seals. OK. You've got to do that
in there, and it's gonna take you x amount of time. But - just tell me
this David - are you saying that when you finish that manuscript -
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- Koresh: Then I'm not bound any longer [unintelligible]
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- FBI: No. But see, that doesn't answer the question.
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- Koresh: Then I'll be out - yes - definitely.
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- FBI: I know you'll be out, but that could - excuse me
I've got a cold. That could mean a lot of things David. That could mean
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- Koresh: I'll be in custody in the jailhouse. You can
come down there and feed me bananas if you want.
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- FBI: I know - I know that some point in time that's true.
But I'm getting from you - I'm asking you, "When that is finished,
are you than telling me that you are coming out the next day, or two hours
after you send that out or what?"
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- Koresh: Oh, I'll probably - when I - when I bring it
out - see - my attorney is gonna get the - get to the copy.
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- FBI: Right.
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- Koresh: OK? And as soon as he hands it over to the scholars
- the theologians - right?
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- FBI: Um, hm.
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- Koresh: That's when - he's gonna come back, and that's
when I'm going to go out with him, because he said point blank that - you
know - one of the guarantees of me arriving down there is that he is gonna
go with me.
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- FBI: So you go on paper here and said that David Koresh
told me that as soon as he finishes this manuscript - the seven seals -
of which you've finished the first chapter dealing with the first seal
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- Koresh: The first seal - right.
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- FBI: That you're gonna make that available -
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- Koresh: I'll be splitting out of this place. I'm so sick
of MRE's - Dick - that ah -
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- FBI: Well, I just want to make sure that I have this
right - that you're coming out. As soon as that's finished -
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- Koresh: That's what - it was said by the attorney's -
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- FBI: Well, I know - I know.
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- Koresh: That's what I'm saying -
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- FBI: OK.
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- Koresh: It's clarified. Lock, stock, and barrel it.
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- FBI: I mean - I've heard you say that you're coming out
after, but that is not specific. You know - that's a game that we all can
play.
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- Koresh: It's - look, I know. Dick -
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- FBI: But I'm asking you for your word. You say that you're
coming out as soon as that's done, and you give up the manuscript to DeGuerin
who is gonna make copies available for Arnold and the other - the other
fella -
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- Koresh: Right.
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- FBI: The other Biblical scholar, and then you are coming
out with that manuscript.
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- Koresh: I'm outta here. And he's he's gonna come, and
the way the procession is to be - I'm to go out first with him, and then
I think, "You're last, right Steve?"
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- Steve Schneider: Yeah.
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- Koresh: With his attorney, and the other people - the
other people in between.
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- FBI: OK. Then - you know what? I'm keeping you from getting
back to work. So I'm - you know what I'm gonna do? I'm gonna let you go
so that you can get back to work, because David, frankly I'm eagerly awaiting
this manuscript.
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- Koresh: Well, I'll tell you what. It's gonna blow your
socks off.
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- FBI: Well - I'm - I'm perfectly willing to - to read
it, and I'm looking forward to it as a member -
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- Koresh: You'll either hate me or love me then.
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- FBI: Well, I want to read it - and then - I'll - you
now - make a decision then, and we'll see how it goes. And in the meantime,
ah - you know - let's get that thing written.
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- Narration: The first chapter of David's manuscript that
had been completed was carried out of the burning building on April 19
by his secretary and stenographer Ruth Riddle. That was on a computer disk.
This disk was subsequently turned over to David's attorney Dick DeGuerin,
and according to David's instructions DeGuerin passed it on to James Tabor
and Phil Arnold. It's now published in the appendix to a recent book, "Why
Waco? Cults and the Battle for Religious Freedom in America." It also
- the book contains a commentary by Arnold and Tabor on the manuscript.
This next segment of the tape is indeed the last recorded words, or conversation
of David Koresh. It was recorded on April the 18th - Sunday - the day before
the fire at about two o'clock in the afternoon. Koresh called the FBI negotiators.
He's quite upset and angry, because they've begun to remove cars and clear
the area in front of the building. First of all, he is upset that evidence
might be destroyed that would relate to what had happened on February 28
in the initial BATF raid on Mt.Carmel. Secondly, he is concerned about
property damage in general. And it's clear from the tone of his voice that
he suspects that something might be up, and that indeed the agreement that
he feels he's reached with the FBI to write the manuscript, and then exit
peacefully, could fall apart and not be carried out.
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- FBI: This is Henry.
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- Koresh: Ah - Henry, this is Dave.
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- FBI: Hi Dave.
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- Koresh: Look. The ah - the generals out here - right?
You have a hard time controlling them, right?
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- FBI: I don't control them. No.
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- Koresh: OK. Well look. We have done everything we can
to be able to communicate in a nice, passionate way. We've ah - you know
- I've told you what our work with God is. And ah - we've been kind. We've
not been your everyday kind of cult. We've not been your everyday kind
of terrorist which I'm sure you - you're familiar with having to deal with.
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- FBI: Um, hm.
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- Koresh: And a lot of the things that the FBI, or these
generals are doing is just kinda way beyond the scope of reason. And they're
not only destroying private property, they're also removing evidences.
And this doesn't seem like that ah - these are - these are moves that should
be made by a government who says to a people that we're going to be able
to take this up in a court of law. I mean - they're not ever - they're
not going to be able to replace a lot of things here. Like that 68 SS El
Camino that belonged to Paul Fatta?
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- FBI: Um, hm.
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- Koresh: They'll never be able to replace that. They don't
have any more of those. And ah - the 68 Camaro and other things out here
in the front.
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- FBI: Um, hm.
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- Koresh: They can't replace that. They just can't replace
it.
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- FBI: Um, hm.
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- Koresh: And - ah - they keep - they keep doing these
kind of things it's just proving to us that they're not - they're not showing
good faith in their part, and I just - I just suggest they shouldn't do
it.
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- FBI: I understand what you're saying, and I will impart
that ah -
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- Koresh: In all courtesy's please - please impart that,
because - because it's coming to the point to where ah - you know - God
in heaven has somewhat to do also. And it's just really coming to the point
of really, "What - What do you men really want?"
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- FBI: I think what - you know - just - this is - I'm just
imparting to you what my perception is. And my perception is that - that
- what they want is they want you and everybody to come out. You know -
I -
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- Koresh: I don't think so. I think what they're showing
is that they don't want that.
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- FBI: Well, I think that - that is exactly what they want.
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- Koresh: No. They're not gonna - they're not gonna - they're
not gonna get that. They're not gonna get that by what they're doing right
now. They're gonna get exactly the opposite - exactly the opposite. They're
gonna get wrath on certain people. They're gonna get anger from certain
guys. Now I can't control everybody here.
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- FBI: I think you can.
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- Koresh: No. I can't. You gotta understand John -
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- FBI: Henry.
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- Koresh: Henry - I'm sorry. In 1985, I presented a truth.
And everybody that's here - I had to debate and I had to talk to, and I
had show from the scriptures. I had to prove my point for many hours, days,
months, and sometimes years with certain people here.
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- FBI: Um, hm.
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- Koresh: They went to scholars. They went to theologians.
I have a very unique group here.
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- FBI: Yes. You do.
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- Koresh: Not ignorant people - not stupid people. Now
there are some people - that in the beginning - that went out like Kevin
and Brad. Individuals that were - you know - people that were out there
- bar rollers and stuff like that. Rough and tough guys. Now they're not
- they're not the theologians of the world, but they're guys that need
a lot of patience, and - you know - with a little bit of refinement and
a little bit of proof to them - they can - they can be good people.
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- FBI: Um, hm.
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- Koresh: But ah - but I would really and in all honesty
and in good faith tell these generals to ah - to - to back up. They don't
need to tear up anymore of this property. You tell us out of one side of
the mouth, we're going to be able to come back here and all this. And ah
- you know - we're gonna take this up in court, and on the other hand you're
showing us there's not gonna be nothing to come back to.
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- FBI: I think the problem with this thing David is that
this thing has lasted way too long.
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- Koresh: Oh, it - it - it has. It should have never gotten
started this way -
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- FBI: You're right.
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- Koresh: And that was not our fault.
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- FBI: Ok. But -
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- Koresh: Now you don't wish to speak to the issues of
the beginning of this -
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- FBI: No. I don't. And - and what the issues were - you
know at that time is something else. The problem is not what the issues
were at that time - the problem is this has lasted way too long. You know
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- Koresh: I'm gonna finish my book or I'm not gonna finish
my book.
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- FBI: Well, I hope that you do.
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- Koresh: Well, let me tell you this. These men who everyday
we try to show them good faith. They've walked out in front of us, they've
driven their tanks up to us, they've bust in the side of the building a
little bit one time. You said that was a mistake - it was not in your control
- that wasn't in the commander's wishes. You know - all of this has been
shown that if these guys want to fight - Now I don't want to fight. I -
I want - I'm a life too, and there's a lot of people in here that are lives.
There's children in here.
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- FBI: That's right.
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- Koresh: And we're also American's. And I think - I think
that America has a patronage - a very clear patronage of individual citizens
who - who - who - who have a breaking point.
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- FBI: Well, that's true.
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- Koresh: Now if the government is gotten this stronger
- it can come on to something that we have worked for hard. We worked when
we got on this property. Al lot of hard hours. This place was a dump. We
fixed it up. We built this little house here. It's not extravagant. You
know - there's a lot of people here with a high commission and a lot of
love and concern, not just for our own lives, but for everybody's life.
And if this is the way our government is showing the world that its tactics
are to get someone to - to - to - to - to do as they wish when realistically,
our - our rights have been infringed upon right and left.
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- FBI: But there's a way to resolve that David.
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- Koresh: Yes. Yes.
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- FBI: And the way to resolve it is for you to come out
and lead your people out.
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- Koresh: Your way - your way is that you're gonna keep
- you're gonna keep destroying our property.
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- FBI: This - this probably would not have had to happen
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- Koresh: It never did have to happen.
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- FBI: That's right. And - and then - you know - if you
would have come out on - on the day that you indicated that you promised
that you were gonna come out none of this would have taken place.
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- Koresh: Look. You denounce the fact that I have a God
that communicates with me. That's - that's the first mistake that we -
that we make.
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- FBI: Nobody - nobody - nobody is saying anything about
your religious beliefs, your thoughts. your ideas -
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- Koresh: Listen. But you are -
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- FBI: Or anything like that.
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- Koresh: You're - you're saying -
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- FBI: The same things that you can do there you could
do out - out here.
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- Koresh: That's what you say. I - I think that you are
lying. As a matter of fact, I know that when the first month or so that
I'm out, I'm gonna be bombarded all of the time with nothing but people
wanting to know Koresh - asking this - asking that.
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- FBI: And if you were working on the seven seals - I mean
- nobody would bother you. I mean - why would you - why would that have
to happen?
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- Koresh: I have my responsibility also you know. Come
on, look at the reality of things.
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- FBI: And the reality of things is that there are priorities.
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- Koresh: OK. But you put your priorities -
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- FBI: And you're priority and everybody's priority should
be in the safety of the children -
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- Koresh: All right.
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- FBI: And the safety of the women, and the safety of everybody
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- Koresh: You're fixing - you are fixing to ruin - your
commanders are fixing to ruin the safety of my and my children. My life
- the lives of my wives - the lives of my friends - my family. You're fixing
to step across the ribbon.
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- FBI: I think that - that was something that you brought
on. It has nothing to do with the commanders, David.
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- Koresh: All right. I brought on - if this - if this is
the corner of the box that you place me into -
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- FBI: I think that you're placing yourself in that David.
I don't think anybody is forcing it -
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- Koresh: No. No. You're the one who moving forward. You're
the one who - who has violated - your generals have violated our constitutional
rights. You have made us guilty before proving so.
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