- Dr. Fredrick Toben is a German author and founder and
former director of the Adelaide Institute. He has written numerous books
on education, political science and history and is best known as a historical
revisionist who has extensively argued the veracity of Holocaust accounts
by the Jewish historians. Due to his holocaust denial, he has been imprisoned
three times in Germany, United Kingdom and Australia.
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- This is an in-depth interview with Dr. Toben in which
we've discussed his viewpoints regarding holocaust, the unconditional supports
of the United States for Israel, the plight of Palestinian nation under
the Israeli occupation and the fate of Middle East peace process.
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- Kourosh Ziabari: Western politician usually boast of
their commitment to liberal values and democratic principles such as the
freedom of speech and human rights; however, you were sentenced to prison
two times as a result of expressing your viewpoints and ideas. Should the
same case happen in a third-world, non-aligned country such as Iran, one
can hardly imagine the extent of international condemnations and criticism
that would come next. Aggregately, you spent 12 months in prison and this
should be very painful. Tell us about your experiences in the prisons of
Germany, United Kingdom and Australia.
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- Fredrick Toben: I think the best way to begin answering
this question is by repeating my sometime misunderstood quip: 'The world
is my prison'. This realization has been strengthened by my regularly visiting
Iran since 1999 when I left Mannheim Prison after seven months and spent
a week in Teheran. I was impressed with the Iranian youth who had a strong
national bond with their country, so different to the Germans and other
peoples in the so-called western democracies.
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- This difference is one of mindset. In the West we have
pushed the hedonistic-consumer life-style to the point where individuals
self-destruct through substance abuse and nihilistic thought processes
that suggest life is fun and games. As a teacher I opposed such a world
view because the act of thinking about things is actually hard work. Admittedly,
for some it is easier than for others but all of us should have to think
about our value system, the guide that enables us to lead a productive
and balanced life.
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- I was impressed how determined Iranian students are in
their attitudes towards life. Admittedly, it helps that there are still
some legal constraints that support a form of public modesty, something
we have lost in the west. I was also impressed by the wisdom they expressed,
for example, some could not understand why in the West an individual who
has personal problems, as if that is an abnormal thing, goes off and pays
money to a stranger who then listens to his personal problems, often about
his most intimate problems. I was informed that in Iran this matter is
handled by a person visiting family and friends, cousins, aunts or uncles,
who then advise on how best to solve a pressing problem. I have been advised
that now there is also a new growth industry psychological counselling,
which is a brain-child of the Freudian mindset, and in turn its wellspring
is found in Talmud, the Jewish moral guide. It is little wonder that too
many individuals cannot accept such thoughts intruding into their value
system and becoming a part of their Weltanschauung-world view.
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- Just getting back to freedom as such, if we use the concept
freedom then we must always ask the questions: freedom from what and freedom
for what? In the West we have the freedom to self-destruct, this being
the logical consequences of consumer society's motor that predatory capitalism
has constructed for us. I have just returned from a seven-week American
tour and saw the tragedies being played out as the financial system is
crashing all around and vainly trying to resurrect itself. The home foreclosures
are a catastrophe, but as is fitting within the hedonistic blame-game,
the individuals who received loans from banks that they could never repay
are blamed for causing their own destruction. This is sad because we should
be looking at the system operating in one of the wealthiest countries in
the world that permits poverty and homelessness to flourish while individuals
within that system receive millions of dollars in performance bonuses.
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- As far as my prison time is concerned, I refuse to adopt
a victim mentality because that is unproductive. As Captain Eric May's
wife, Gretchen, reminded me when I visited them in July this year in Houston,
as she tended to her totally disabled husband, "It's useless to sit
on the pity-pot and better to get on with the job'. That's the imperative,
to get on with the job, and if your body gives up on you, then it is the
brain that sees you through. This is also true of prison itself. The authorities
may have your body but they still do not have your mind, not yet. There
were moved afoot to declare individuals who refuse to believe in the 'Holocaust'
as 'delusional', the first step to have them psychiatrically committed.
But then we know how such a story tragically ends, as in the 1962 novel,
One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jReNeEHH2lQ
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- In 1999 I spent time at Yalta, Crimea, where I met a
psychiatrist who informed me how he had to certify insane any Soviet Union
dissenter. Anyone who refused to go along with Marxism as a state ideology
would be given the treatment. In Poland up to 1989 it was a dogma to believe
that the Germans perpetrated the Katyn Massacre, when in fact it was the
mainly Jewish staffed Soviet secret service that did it. The 'Holocaust'
has reached this stage in a number of European countries and we have
to ask ourselves why this is so.
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- The usual response is that questioning the 'holocaust'
is hurtful to the survivors and it is defaming the memory of the dead,
and it is also diminishing the Nazi war-crimes and will lead to a re-surgence
of Nazism. All of these reasons are baseless because history does not repeat
itself in any such detail. Further, any 'Holocaust' trial is a mere show-trial
reminiscent of the Soviet show trials where the accused is already guilty
but where a confession of guilt helps to minimize the sentence. During
the witch trial era a show of contrition and remorse helped to make the
execution a little swifter because it eliminated torture sessions prior
to being executed.
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- Any country that enacts such laws on the pretext of protecting
the 'Holocaust' is perverting its legal system. The Austrians, Germans
and Swiss have done it, but the Anglo-Common Law countries are resisting
it vehemently because they can see that it could have a backlash on its
own system of law, which guarantees basic individual rights.
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- But it must be remembered that all western democracies
have that far more subtler mechanism of imprisonment for its people, namely
the financial straight jacket. In today's world the only value that a person
needs to develop is his credit worthiness, while such things as character
are irrelevant. A person's credit rating supersedes all, until one begins
to question the underpinning ideology of this financial system, which,
among others, is upheld by the 'Holocaust' ideology.
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- KZ: Let's talk about the
main issue of our concern. Some scholars and thinkers believe that, in
order to escape from the responsibility of hosting the Jewish immigrants
who were displaced following the Second World War, Canada, the United States,
Germany and Britain, planned the establishment of a Jewish state on the
Palestinian land so as to get away with the burden of receiving the Jewish
refugees themselves. What do you think about this viewpoint?
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- FT: The Second World War's
legacy is still with us to this day and that is why it is important to
have an historical perspective on all this, namely that World War One and
World War Two were actually a 30-year war period, which can be called a
European civil war. The outcome was the establishment of the State of Israel
that is quite clear when one asks: who benefited from this conflict? The
Zionist program of the 1890s had come to fruition at the expense of the
Palestinians. The fabricated 'Holocaust' narrative assists in cementing
the myth that Palestine was a land without people, and the world knows
that to this day ethnic cleansing continues unabated with the western democracies
not lifting a finger to stop this process.
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- When White House correspondent of over 50 years, Lebanese
Helen Thomas, was asked about the Palestinian crisis she responded honestly:
send the Jews back home. Where is home, she was asked. Germany and Poland,
she replied. The next day she apologized and lost her job.
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- It must be remembered that any kind of war is multi-faceted,
as we witnessed in our time with the Iraq-Iran war, the 2003 Iraq invasion
by the Anglo-American-Zionist forces, the Afghan conflict and the current
intention by these forces to attack Iran.
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- The ideological battle lines are still national versus
international, and not the false dialectic of left and right-wing politics,
as Anthony Lowenstein wishes to believe. As a Jew Lowenstein opposes the
Zionists but believes in the 'Holocaust' ideology-lies as well as in the
Marxist-Trotskyist nonsense that is based on Talmud thinking.
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- KZ: Your viewpoint regarding
Holocaust has been usually distorted and misrepresented. What's your exact
stance on it? Did the mass killing of Jews by the Nazi forces in concentration
camps take place? Has its extent been exaggerated by the Israelis to attract
the commiseration of the Western powers? Is it being employed as an instrument
of subjugating and oppressing the Palestinian people?
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- FT: I follow Professors Arthur
Butz and Robert Faurisson in their deliberations on this topic, and both
conclude that the premise, pillars on which the 'Holocaust' narrative rests,
6 million Jews killed, systematic state extermination policy, murder weapon
a gas chamber, cannot be sustained as being the truth of the matter. As
Butz says, it is rubbish to hold such a view, and Faurisson calls it a
lie. It is not for Revisionists to prove their assertions but for those
who believe in the 'Holocaust' to prove their case, which to date has not
been done. Faurisson's challenge: 'Show me or draw me the homicidal gas
chambers at Auschwitz' has not been taken up by anyone. What does happen
is legal persecution that leads to personal and financial ruin and imprisonment.
That speaks for itself, and then there is the defamation of those who refuse
to believe in the 'Holocaust' with the following shut-up words, hater,
Holocaust denier, antisemitist, racist, Nazi, and even terrorist.
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- It is thanks to the courageous Iranian President, Dr
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, who informed the world that the 'Holocaust' is being
misused by those who oppress the Palestinian people. This linkage is fundamental
in solving the crisis facing the Middle East, and only after its resolution
will the area come to rest. The focus on Iran as a rogue nuclear state
is a mere pretext used by the Anglo-American-Zionist powers to retain the
myth of the Zionist entity called Israel.
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- KZ: You've proclaimed that
Germans never gassed anyone during World War II and have no need to feel
guilty about anything except for neglecting their cultural roots. We may
accept the notion that Holocaust did not happen during the Second World
War and was minimally a lie which the Zionists fabricated to take advantage
from Europe; however, we have a number of renowned Holocaust survivors
such as Elie Wiesel, Wadysaw Bartoszewski, Eric Kandel, Jack Triemel and
Arek Harsh who have retold their own accounts of those days and even seen
the demise of their relatives and family members in person. What do you
say about that?
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- FT: The fact that serious
Holocaust questioners are routinely legally silenced speaks for itself.
Only in the USA with its First Amendment is there still absolute freedom
to discuss this topic. But even now there are moves afoot to eliminate
the First Amendment, and the recent appointment of Elena Kagan to the US
Supreme Court may cause this to happen.
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- In my book Arbeit Macht Frei: Impertinent Incarceration,
I make reference to a television program, ABC Good Morning America, 18
February 2009, where a Herman Rosenblat admits he has not been telling
the truth about his concentration camp experience, but for him this made-up
story was truthful because he imagined it to be true! Such nonsense is
well documented as typical 'Holocaust' material.
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- The above individuals would have great problems in a
court of law where truth-telling is still demanded. For example, in the
1988 Zündel Toronto court case Professor Rauol Hilberg, the author
of the definitive 1985 book: The Destruction of the European Jews, stated
that the mentioned two written Hitler orders did not exist. We are thus
led to believe that Germans began the extermination process without a plan,
without an order, without anything except an intuitive feel of what Adolf
Hitler wanted them to do. Such premise is a nonsense because anyone who
knows how societies work and how bureaucracies don't move unless there
is a written order.
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- That Elie Wiesel is a fraudster has been well established
and Google will produce the goods on this, but he has academic tenure,
which protects him, and so the mythology will continue until he is no more.
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- KZ: Why does the United States
support Israel so unconditionally? In actuality, Israel has been immune
to all of the international laws and regulations without being questioned
by any of the international bodies. It has attacked Syria, Jordan, Lebanon,
Iraq and Tunisia since its establishment and recurrently subjugated the
Palestinian people, killing the innocent civilians, destroying their homes,
building illegal settlements and above all, possessing nuclear weapons
in violation of the UNSC resolution 487. What would happen if any country
rather than Israel had committed such inhumane crimes?
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- FT: Essentially, Israel embodies
the New World Order that emerged out of the World War Two conflict, and
this NWO is crumbling because of its own internal contradictions, something
that the Iranians have recognised so well. However, the materialism that
still physically sustains the western democracies is exhausting itself.
This is so evident by the number of countries where US troops are stationed.
This physical overreach has a negative impact on the US itself, one being
that its physical infrastructure is falling apart. The Arizona effort to
secure its won borders from Mexico is a mere symptom of a national resistance
against the internationalism preached by the proponents of the NWO.
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- An additional problem to this is that the proponents
of this new internationalism in the form of the New World Order requires
a steady tax life-line. The aim of the carbon tax that was supposed to
help us fight climate change/global warming/greenhouse effect/ozone hole,
etc. was designed to give the NWO that steady sustaining tax income. It
has not happened and one consequence in Australia of that failure was a
change in Prime Minister. Mr Kevin Rudd was a strong proponent of this
internationalism in the form of the climate change ideology. His attendance
at the 2009 Copenhagen conference aimed to establish a global tax system
that the World Bank or the IMF would administer.
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- KZ: On March 14, you quoted
Herald Scotland's reporter Rob Edwards as writing that hundreds of powerful
US "bunker-buster" bombs were shipped from California to the
British island of Diego Garcia in the Indian Ocean in preparation for a
possible attack on Iran. Do you take these actions seriously? Israel and
United States, over the past 6 years, have been threatening Iran with an
imminent war recurrently; however, their threats never went beyond mere
propaganda. Will the United States and Israel be attacking Iran over its
nuclear program?
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- FT: The problem faced by
the western predatory capitalistic war machine is the financial collapse
that is built into its faulty model. The cycle is grow and bust, then plunder
and recede and enjoy. The 9:11 tragedy of 2001 managed to hide one such
a 'bust' but by 2008 there was another one and the end is not yet in sight.
Countries that are reasonably self-sufficent will survive the crash, while
others dependent on world markets will not.
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- Such economic model; was opposed by the National Socialists
under Adolf Hitler who withdrew from international financial agreements
because it was causing too much fain for its people. The new policy was
to become AUTARK, self-sufficient and not as is the case so markedly, a
network of interdependent enterprises that produce goods as cheaply as
possible without having any allegiance to a community, except that of the
international banking system's set of values, which is profits above social
wellbeing of individuals.
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- The scenario for war against Iran is a logical step within
the Anglo-American-Zionist's war machine strategic planning, and the Iraq
and Afghan wars are not enough to sustain the global economy. The overreach
is becoming evident as, for example, US soldiers return from tours of duty
totally crushed by the hopelessness of the situation, by the conflict dragging
on too long.
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- Such weariness is also felt in Israel where individuals
cannot anymore participate in being members of an army that is administering
a state. The flight of Jews from Israel to Germany, the USA-Canada, Britain
and Australia-New Zealand is seriously undermining morale. It is only a
matter of time that there will not be any one willing to continue the occupation.
We see similar trends within the US military where aliens join up to fight
and their reward is receiving US citizenship. This gives the notion of
a mercenary army, as was the French Foreign Legion, a new meaning. It is
essentially an outsourcing of military services, something detrimental
to a national state.
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- The Iranian nuclear program issue, like the 'Holocaust'
is a smokescreen that hides far deeper issues with which the Anglo-American-Zionist
war machine has to come to terms with.
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- KZ: Do you differentiate
between Zionists as the followers of an expansionistic, racist ideology
whose ultimate objective is establishing a state with its frontiers spanned
from Nile to Euphrates and the Jews as the followers of a monotheistic,
divine religion? It's been seen frequently said that the Zionists and Jews
have been conflated unjustly. What's your take on that?
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- FT: My academic training
has been in philosophy and that enables me to think and work in universals,
truth, honour, justice, etc. I have difficulties thinking in racial terms
because I follow Carl Jung's mindset, as opposed to Siegmund Freud's infantile
emphasis on sexual matters. Jung's archetype thinking postulates that humans
have a common denominator that expresses itself in character types.
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- I vividly recall my teaching time in Nigeria where I
came across individuals who were eager to learn and develop their minds,
and for a teacher this is inspirational. As I retuned to Australia I came
across students who didn't want to learn because for them thinking was
hard work and they were not imbued with such mindset because our education
philosophy is still based on hedonism, learning has to be fun. To that
I say, yes, let's have fun but then let's also do some serious thinking,
and that's hard work.
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- The Jews are not a race and to have Zionists calling
themselves Jewish is a contradiction in terms. It is much like Antony Lowenstein
fighting the Zionists-nationalists but at the same time calling himself
an atheist but also a Jewish Trotzkyist who believes in the 'Holocaust'.
Out of this Talmudic mindset emerges a victim mentality that is played
to the full when it is a matter of the battle-of-the-wills. If a person
does not get their way, then they play victim, of discrimination, etc.
When they get their way, they become tyrannical in their behaviour, as
we see the Zionists behaving in Palestine. It is the case of the man who
kills his parents, then pleads before a judge for mercy because he is now
an orphan.
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- I cannot discriminate against individuals who hold a
firm and sincere religious belief, and that is why I cannot accept that
being Jewish is a racist matter. For example Sir Yehudi Menuhin's son,
Gerard, who wrote the Introduction to my book 50 Days in Gaol, is anything
but a Zionist and like his father opposed the settlements. In 1991 before
the Israeli parliament he said, among other things:
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- "This wasteful governing by fear, by contempt for
the basic dignities of life, this steady asphyxiation of a dependent people,
should be the very last means to be adopted by those who themselves know
too well the awful significance, the unforgettable suffering of such an
existence. It is unworthy of my great people, the Jews, who have striven
to abide by a code of moral rectitude for some 5,000 years, who can create
and achieve a society for themselves such as we see around us but can yet
deny the sharing of its great qualities and benefits to those dwelling
amongst them." Jerusalem Post, 6 May 1991.
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- Nathan Chofshi of Herliza, one of the pioneer Jewish
settlers in Palestine, said in the Jewish Letter, New York, February 9,
1959: "We came and tuned the native Arabs into refugees, and still
we dare to slander and malign them, to besmirch their name. Instead of
being ashamed of what we did and trying to undo some of the evil committed....we
justify our terrible acts and even attempt to glorify them." This
is what the Zionists did to the world, which then "bowed down to them."
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- This above quotations, of course raises further issues
but it follows the line of reasoning that the UN Security Council gave
on 1 April 1948: "The occupant does not in any way acquire sovereign
right in the occupied territory but exercise a temporary right of administration
on a trustee basis...."
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- But it's not only the Jewish world that is at fault,
and my quip: Don't blame the Jews, blame those that bend to their pressure,
still holds. For example, there are Israel's supporters who let all this
happen at the expense of the peoples them residing in Palestine.
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- Think of the following: The "Provisional Government
of Israel" consisted of international Zionists gangsters, aliens from
many foreign countries throughout the world; How could Israel possible
convert robbery, looting and its acts of crime into an act of benevolence
or transmit them into acts of decency and transform aggression into "peace-loving?"
Many leading Americans defended and praised this atrocity. Voices such
as the following were in the minority: Father Ralph Gorman, Editor of the
Sign Magazine, wrote in February 1960: "We aided and abetted the Zionists
and Israelis who drove nearly a million Arabs from their homes and replaced
them with a million Jewish immigrants."
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- The UN Charter admits as a member "A peace-loving
State which accepts the obligations of the Charter - is able and willing
to carry out these obligations". This the Jews have never recognized
but instead have ignored the UN and the Security Council ever since. In
any case a so-called state of Israel never existed in fact or in law or
in history and so it is nothing but an illegal "proclamation"
and an illegal occupation of Palestinian land.
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- The demographic factor in this area, of course, is also
of importance and were there any democratic solution drawn up in time the
Palestinians would outbreed the Jews living in Israel and a solution would
emerge where Arabic-speaking Palestinians would hold the majority vote.
For the ultra-Orthodox Jews this is untenable because they want to be by
themselves, even not associate with their 'secular' Jews. This latter point
could develop into a societal implosion, something that has already begun
with Israel relying on migrant workers to keep the country going. Add to
that the legal definition of who is a Jew and many more societal problems
will emerge, which perhaps will rescue the dogmatic into yielding to the
inevitable a one-state solution as proposed by Iran.
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- Finally: Let's remember that the international Zionists
leaders led by David Ben-Gurion committed war crimes and crimes against
humanity in Palestine as defined by Article 6 of the Nuremberg Charter
by which the German National Socialist leaders were convicted by the International
Military Tribunal and hanged...but there is a pragmatic and non idealistic
mindset that aims to establish physical facts on the ground that sets a
new dialectic, then physical force enables them to exercise power over
others. The latest example that particularly succeeded before the lie
became evident was the insider-job of 9:11, which pitted the so-called
western democracies against the world of Islam on the pretext that the
west is bringing freedom and democracy to the Muslim world where there
is no freedom and democracy. But thinking along such lines goes beyond
this current interview and I thank you for the opportunity for giving
me a say.
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