- In an interview with SPIEGEL, Iranian
President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad discusses the Holocaust, the future of the
state of Israel, mistakes made by the United States in Iraq and Tehran's
nuclear conflict with the West.
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- SPIEGEL: Mr. President, you are a soccer
fan and you like to play soccer. Will you be sitting in the stadium in
Nuremberg on June 11, when the Iranian national team plays against Mexico
in Germany?
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- Ahmadinejad: It depends. Naturally,
I'll be watching the game in any case. I don't know yet whether I'll be
at home in front of the television set or somewhere else. My decision depends
upon a number of things.
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- SPIEGEL: For example?
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- Ahmadinejad: How much time I have, how
the state of various relationships are going, whether I feel like it and
a number of other things.
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- SPIEGEL: There was great indignation
in Germany when it became known that you might be coming to the soccer
world championship. Did that surprise you?
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- Ahmadinejad: No, that's not important.
I didn't even understand how that came about. It also had no meaning for
me. I don't know what all the excitement is about.
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- SPIEGEL: It concerned your remarks about
the Holocaust. It was inevitable that the Iranian president's denial of
the systematic murder of the Jews by the Germans would trigger outrage.
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- Ahmadinejad: I don't exactly understand
the connection.
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- SPIEGEL: First you make your remarks
about the Holocaust. Then comes the news that you may travel to Germany
-- this causes an uproar. So you were surprised after all?
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- Ahmadinejad: No, not at all, because
the network of Zionism is very active around the world, in Europe too.
So I wasn't surprised. We were addressing the German people. We have nothing
to do with Zionists.
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- SPIEGEL: Denying the Holocaust is punishable
in Germany. Are you indifferent when confronted with so much outrage?
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- Ahmadinejad: I know that DER SPIEGEL
is a respected magazine. But I don't know whether it is possible for you
to publish the truth about the Holocaust. Are you permitted to write everything
about it?
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- SPIEGEL: Of course we are entitled to
write about the findings of the past 60 years' historical research. In
our view there is no doubt that the Germans -- unfortunately -- bear the
guilt for the murder of 6 million Jews.
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- Ahmadinejad: Well, then we have stirred
up a very concrete discussion. We are posing two very clear questions.
The first is: Did the Holocaust actually take place? You answer this question
in the affirmative. So, the second question is: Whose fault was it? The
answer to that has to be found in Europe and not in Palestine. It is perfectly
clear: If the Holocaust took place in Europe, one also has to find the
answer to it in Europe. On the other hand, if the Holocaust didn't take
place, why then did this regime of occupation ...
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- SPIEGEL: ... You mean the state of Israel...
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- Ahmadinejad: ... come about? Why do
the European countries commit themselves to defending this regime? Permit
me to make one more point. We are of the opinion that, if an historical
occurrence conforms to the truth, this truth will be revealed all the more
clearly if there is more research into it and more discussion about it.
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- SPIEGEL: That has long since happened
in Germany.
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- Ahmadinejad: We don't want to confirm
or deny the Holocaust. We oppose every type of crime against any people.
But we want to know whether this crime actually took place or not. If it
did, then those who bear the responsibility for it have to be punished,
and not the Palestinians. Why isn't research into a deed that occurred
60 years ago permitted? After all, other historical occurrences, some of
which lie several thousand years in the past, are open to research, and
even the governments support this.
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- SPIEGEL: Mr. President, with all due
respect, the Holocaust occurred, there were concentration camps, there
are dossiers on the extermination of the Jews, there has been a great deal
of research, and there is neither the slightest doubt about the Holocaust
nor about the fact - we greatly regret this - that the Germans are responsible
for it. If we may now add one remark: the fate of the Palestinians is an
entirely different issue, and this brings us into the present.
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- Ahmadinejad: No, no, the roots of the
Palestinian conflict must be sought in history. The Holocaust and Palestine
are directly connected with one another. And if the Holocaust actually
occurred, then you should permit impartial groups from the whole world
to research this. Why do you restrict the research to a certain group?
Of course, I don't mean you, but rather the European governments.
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- SPIEGEL: Are you still saying that the
Holocaust is just "a myth?"
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- Ahmadinejad: I will only accept something
as truth if I am actually convinced of it.
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- SPIEGEL: Even though no Western scholars
harbor any doubt about the Holocaust?
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- Ahmadinejad: But there are two opinions
on this in Europe. One group of scholars or persons, most of them politically
motivated, say the Holocaust occurred. Then there is the group of scholars
who represent the opposite position and have therefore been imprisoned
for the most part. Hence, an impartial group has to come together to investigate
and to render an opinion on this very important subject, because the clarification
of this issue will contribute to the solution of global problems. Under
the pretext of the Holocaust, a very strong polarization has taken place
in the world and fronts have been formed. It would therefore be very good
if an international and impartial group looked into the matter in order
to clarify it once and for all. Normally, governments promote and support
the work of researchers on historical events and do not put them in prison.
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- SPIEGEL: Who is that supposed to be?
Which researchers do you mean?
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- Ahmadinejad: You would know this better
than I; you have the list. There are people from England, from Germany,
France and from Australia.
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- SPIEGEL: You presumably mean, for example,
the Englishman David Irving, the German-Canadian Ernst Zündel, who
is on trial in Mannheim, and the Frenchman Georges Theil, all of whom deny
the Holocaust.
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- Ahmadinejad: The mere fact that my comments
have caused such strong protests, although I'm not a European, and also
the fact that I have been compared with certain persons in German history
indicates how charged with conflict the atmosphere for research is in your
country. Here in Iran you needn't worry.
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- SPIEGEL: Well, we are conducting this
historical debate with you for a very timely purpose. Are you questioning
Israel's right to exist?
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- Ahmadinejad: Look here, my views are
quite clear. We are saying that if the Holocaust occurred, then Europe
must draw the consequences and that it is not Palestine that should pay
the price for it. If it did not occur, then the Jews have to go back to
where they came from. I believe that the German people today are also prisoners
of the Holocaust. Sixty million people died in the Second World War. World
War II was a gigantic crime. We condemn it all. We are against bloodshed,
regardless of whether a crime was committed against a Muslim or against
a Christian or a Jew. But the question is: Why among these 60 million victims
are only the Jews the center of attention?
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- SPIEGEL: That's just not the case. All
peoples mourn the victims claimed by the Second World War, Germans and
Russians and Poles and others as well. Yet, we as Germans cannot absolve
ourselves of a special guilt, namely for the systematic murder of the Jews.
But perhaps we should now move on to the next subject.
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- Ahmadinejad: No, I have a question for
you. What kind of a role did today's youth play in World War II?
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- SPIEGEL: None.
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- Ahmadinejad: Why should they have feelings
of guilt toward Zionists? Why should the costs of the Zionists be paid
out of their pockets? If people committed crimes in the past, then they
would have to have been tried 60 years ago. End of story! Why must the
German people be humiliated today because a group of people committed crimes
in the name of the Germans during the course of history?
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- SPIEGEL: The German people today can't
do anything about it. But there is a sort of collective shame for those
deeds done in the German name by our fathers or grandfathers.
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- Ahmadinejad: How can a person who wasn't
even alive at the time be held legally responsible?
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- SPIEGEL: Not legally but morally.
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- Ahmadinejad: Why is such a burden heaped
on the German people? The German people of today bear no guilt. Why are
the German people not permitted the right to defend themselves? Why are
the crimes of one group emphasized so greatly, instead of highlighting
the great German cultural heritage? Why should the Germans not have the
right to express their opinion freely?
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- SPIEGEL: Mr. President, we are well
aware that German history is not made up of only the 12 years of the Third
Reich. Nevertheless, we have to accept that horrible crimes have been committed
in the German name. We also own up to this, and it is a great achievement
of the Germans in post-war history that they have grappled critically with
their past.
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- Ahmadinejad: Are you also prepared to
tell that to the German people?
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- SPIEGEL: Oh yes, we do that.
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- Ahmadinejad: Then would you also permit
an impartial group to ask the German people whether it shares your opinion?
No people accepts its own humiliation.
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- SPIEGEL: All questions are allowed in
our country. But of course there are right-wing radicals in Germany who
are not only anti-Semitic, but xenophobic as well, and we do indeed consider
them a threat.
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- Ahmadinejad: Let me ask you one thing:
How much longer can this go on? How much longer do you think the German
people have to accept being taken hostage by the Zionists? When will that
end - in 20, 50, 1,000 years?
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- SPIEGEL: We can only speak for ourselves.
DER SPIEGEL is nobody's hostage; SPIEGEL does not deal only with Germany's
past and the Germans' crimes. We're not Israel's uncritical ally in the
Palestian conflict. But we want to make one thing very clear: We are critical,
we are independent, but we won't simply stand by without protest when the
existential right of the state of Israel, where many Holocaust survivors
live, is being questioned.
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- Ahmadinejad: Precisely that is our point.
Why should you feel obliged to the Zionists? If there really had been a
Holocaust, Israel ought to be located in Europe, not in Palestine.
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- SPIEGEL: Do you want to resettle a whole
people 60 years after the end of the war?
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- Ahmadinejad: Five million Palestinians
have not had a home for 60 years. It is amazing really: You have been paying
reparations for the Holocaust for 60 years and will have to keep paying
up for another 100 years. Why then is the fate of the Palestinians no issue
here?
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- SPIEGEL: The Europeans support the Palestinians
in many ways. After all, we also have an historic responsibility to help
bring peace to this region finally. But don't you share that responsibility?
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- Ahmadinejad: Yes, but aggression, occupation
and a repetition of the Holocaust won't bring peace. What we want is a
sustainable peace. This means that we have to tackle the root of the problem.
I am pleased to note that you are honest people and admit that you are
obliged to support the Zionists.
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- SPIEGEL: That's not what we said, Mr.
President.
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- Ahmadinejad: You said Israelis.
Do you want nuclear weapons for your country?
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- SPIEGEL: Mr. President, we're talking
about the Holocaust because we want to talk about the possible nuclear
armament of Iran -- which is why the West sees you as a threat.
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- Ahmadinejad: Some groups in the West
enjoy calling things or people a threat. Of course you're free to make
your own judgment.
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- SPIEGEL: The key question is: Do you
want nuclear weapons for your country?
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- Ahmadinejad: Allow me to encourage a
discussion on the following question: How long do you think the world can
be governed by the rhetoric of a handful of Western powers? Whenever they
hold something against someone, they start spreading propaganda and lies,
defamation and blackmail. How much longer can that go on?
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- SPIEGEL: We're here to find out the
truth. The head of state of a neighboring country, for example, told SPIEGEL:
"They are very keen on building the bomb." Is that true?
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- Ahmadinejad: You see, we conduct our
discussions with you and the European governments on an entirely different,
higher level. In our view, the legal system whereby a handful of countries
force their will on the rest of the world is discriminatory and unstable.
One-hundred and thirty-nine countries, including us, are members of the
International Atomic Energy Authority (IAEA) in Vienna. Both the statutes
of IAEA and the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty as well as all security
agreements grant the member countries the right to produce nuclear fuel
for peaceful purposes. That is the legitimate legal right of any people.
Beyond this, however, IAEA was also established to promote the disarmament
of those powers that already possessed nuclear weapons. And now look at
what's happening today: Iran has had an excellent cooperation with IAEA.
We have had more than 2,000 inspections of our plants, and the inspectors
have obtained more than 1,000 pages of documentation from us. Their cameras
are installed in our nuclear centers. IAEA has emphasized in all its reports
that there are no indications of any irregularities in Iran. That is one
side of this matter.
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- SPIEGEL: IAEA doesn't quite share your
view of this matter.
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- Ahmadinejad: But the other side is that
there are a number of countries that possess both nuclear energy and nuclear
weapons. They use their atomic weapons to threaten other peoples. And it
is these powers who say that they are worried about Iran deviating from
the path of peaceful use of atomic energy. We say that these powers are
free to monitor us if they are worried. But what these powers say is that
the Iranians must not complete the nuclear fuel cycle because deviation
from peaceful use might then be possible. What we say is that these countries
themselves have long deviated from peaceful usage. These powers have no
right to talk to us in this manner. This order is unjust and unsustainable.
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- SPIEGEL: But, Mr. President, the key
question is: How dangerous will this world become if even more countries
become nuclear powers -- if a country like Iran, whose president makes
threats, builds the bomb in a crisis-ridden region?
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- Ahmadinejad: We're fundamentally opposed
to the expansion of nucleaar-weapons arsenals. This is why we have proposed
the formation of an unbiased organization and the disarmament of the nuclear
powers. We don't need any weapons. We're a civilized, cultured people,
and our history shows that we have never attacked another country.
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- SPIEGEL: Iran doesn't need the bomb
that it wants to build?
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- Ahmadinejad: It's interesting to note
that European nations wanted to allow the shah's dictatorship the use of
nuclear technology. That was a dangerous regime. Yet those nations were
willing to supply it with nuclear technology. Ever since the Islamic Republic
has existed, however, these powers have been opposed to it. I stress once
again, we don't need any nuclear weapons.
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- We stand by our statements because we're
honest and act legally. We're no fraudsters. We only want to claim our
legitimate right. Incidentally, I never threatened anyone - that, too,
is part of the propaganda machine that you've got running against me.
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- SPIEGEL: If this were so, shouldn't
you be making an effort to ensure that no one need fear your producing
nuclear weapons that you might use against Israel, thus possibly unleashing
a world war? You're sitting on a tinderbox, Mr. President.
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- Ahmadinejad: Allow me to say two things.
No people in the region are afraid of us. And no one should instill fear
in these peoples. We believe that if the United States and these two or
three European countries did not interfere, the peoples in this region
would live peacefully together as they did in the thousands of years before.
In 1980, it was also the nations of Europe and the United States that encouraged
Saddam Hussein to attack us.
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- Our stance with respect to Palestine
is clear. We say: Allow those to whom this country belongs to express their
opinion. Let Jews, Christians and Muslims say what they think. The opponents
of this proposal prefer war and threaten the region. Why are the United
States and these two or three European nations opposed to this? I believe
that those who imprison Holocaust researchers prefer war to peace. Our
stance is democratic and peaceful.
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- SPIEGEL: The Palestinians have long
gone a step further than you and recognize Israel as a fact, while you
still wish to erase it from the map. The Palestinians are ready to accept
a two-state solution while you deny Israel its right to existence.
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- Ahmadinejad: You're wrong. You saw that
the Palestinian people elected Hamas in free elections. We argue that neither
you nor we should claim to speak for the Palestian people. The Palestinians
themselves should say what they want. In Europe it is customary to call
a referendum on any issue. We should also give the Palestinians the opportunity
to express their opinion.
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- SPIEGEL: The Palestinians have the right
to their own state, but in our view the Israelis naturally have the same
right.
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- Ahmadinejad: Where did the Israelis
come from?
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- SPIEGEL: Well, if we tried to work out
where people have come from, the Europeans would have to return to east
Africa where all humans originated.
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- Ahmadinejad: We're not talking about
the Europeans; we're talking about the Palestinians. The Palestinians were
there, in Palestine. Now 5 million of them have become refugees. Don't
they have a right to live?
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- SPIEGEL: Mr. President, doesn't there
come a time when one should accept that the world is the way it is and
that we must accept the status quo? The war against Iraq has put Iran in
a favorable position. The United States has suffered a de facto defeat
in Iraq. Isn't it now time for Iran to become a constructive power of peace
in the Middle East? Which would mean giving up its nuclear plans and inflammatory
talk?
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- Ahmadinejad: I'm wondering why you're
adopting and fanatically defending the stance of the European politicians.
You're a magazine, not a government. Saying that we should accept the world
as it is would mean that the winners of World War II would remain the victorious
powers for another 1,000 years and that the German people would be humiliated
for another 1,000 years. Do you think that is the correct logic?
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- SPIEGEL: No, that's not the right logic,
nor is it true. The Germans have played a modest, but important role in
post-war developments. They do not feel as though they have been humiliated
and dishonored since 1945. We are too self-confident for that. But today
we want to talk about Iran's current mission.
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- Ahmadinejad: Then we would accept that
Palestinians are killed every day, that they die in terrorist attacks,
and that houses are being destroyed. But let me say something about Iraq.
We have always favored peace and security in the region. For eight years,
the Western countries provided arms to Saddam in the war against us, including
chemical weapons, and gave him political support. We were against Saddam
and suffered severely because of him, so we're happy that he has been toppled.
But we don't accept a whole country being swallowed under the pretext of
wanting to topple Saddam. More than 100,000 Iraqis have lost their lives
under the rule of the occupying forces. Fortunately, the Germans haven't
been involved in this. We want security in Iraq.
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- SPIEGEL: But, Mr. President, who is
swallowing Iraq? The United States has practically lost this war. By cooperating
constructively, Iran might help the Americans consider their retreat from
the country.
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- Ahmadinejad: This is very interesting:
The Americans occupy the country, kill people, sell the oil and when they
have lost, they blame others. We have very close ties to the Iraqi people.
Many people on both sides of the border are related. We have lived side
by side for thousands of years. Our holy pilgrimage sites are located in
Iraq. Just like Iran, Iraq used to be a center of civilization.
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- SPIEGEL: What are you trying to say?
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- Ahmadinejad: We have always said that
we support the popularly elected government of Iraq. But in my view the
Americans are doing a bad job. They have sent us messages several times
asking us for help and cooperation. They have said that we should talk
together about Iraq. We publicly accepted this offer, although our people
do not trust the Americans. But America has responded negatively and insulted
us. Even now we're contributing to security in Iraq. We will hold talks
only if the Americans change their behavior.
-
- SPIEGEL: Do you enjoy provoking the
Americans and the rest of the world now and then?
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- Ahmadinejad: No, I'm not insulting anyone.
The letter that I wrote to Mr. Bush was polite.
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- SPIEGEL: We don't mean insult, but provoke.
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- Ahmadinejad: No, we feel animosity toward
no one. We're concerned about the American soldiers who die in Iraq. Why
do they have to die there? This war makes no sense. Why is there war when
there is reason as well?
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- SPIEGEL: Is your letter to the president
also a gesture toward the Americans that you wish to enter into direct
negotiations?
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- Ahmadinejad: We clearly stated our position
in this letter on how we view the problems in the world. Some powers have
befouled the political atmosphere in the world because they consider lies
and fraud to be legitimate. In our view that is very bad. We believe that
all people deserve respect. Relationships have to be regulated on the basis
of justice. When justice reigns, peace reigns. Unjust conditions aren't
sustainable, even if Ahmadinejad does not criticize them.
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- SPIEGEL: This letter to the American
president includes a passage about Sept. 11, 2001. The quote: "How
could such an operation be planned and implemented without the coordination
with secret and security services or without the far-reaching infiltration
of these services?" Your statements always include so many innuendos.
What is that supposed to mean? Did the CIA help Mohammed Atta and the other
18 terrorists conduct their attacks?
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- Ahmadinejad: No, that's not what I meant.
We think that they should just say who is to blame. They should not use
Sept. 11 as an excuse to launch a military attack against the Middle East.
They should take those who are responsible for the attacks to court. We're
not opposed to that; we condemned the attacks. We condemn any attack against
innocent people.
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- SPIEGEL: In this letter you also write
that Western liberalism has failed. What makes you say that?
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- Ahmadinejad: You see, for example you
have a thousand definitions of the Palestian problem and you offer all
sorts of different definitions of democracy in its various forms. It does
not make sense that a phenomenon depends on the opinions of many individuals
who are free to interpret the phenomenon as they wish. You can't solve
the problems of the world that way. We need a new approach. Of course we
want the free will of the people to reign, but we need sustainable principles
that enjoy universal acceptance - such as justice. Iran and the West agree
on this.
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- SPIEGEL: What role can Europe play in
the resolution of the nuclear conflict, and what do you expect of Germany?
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- Ahmadinejad: We have always cultivated
good relations with Europe, especially with Germany. Our two peoples like
each other. We're eager to deepen this relationship.
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- Europe has made three mistakes with
respect to our people. The first mistake was to support the shah's government.
This has left our people disappointed and discontent. However, by offering
asylum to Imam Khomeini, France earned a special position that it lost
again later. The second mistake was to support Saddam in his war against
us. The truth is that our people expected Europe to be on our side, not
against us. The third mistake was Europe's stance on the nuclear issue.
Europe will be the big loser and will achieve nothing. We don't want to
see that happen.
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- SPIEGEL: What will happen now in the
conflict between the West and Iran?
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- Ahmadinejad: We understand the Americans'
logic. They suffered damage as a result of the victory of the Islamic Revolution.
But we're puzzled why some European countries are opposed to us. I sent
out a message on the nuclear issue, asking why the Europeans were translating
the Americans' words for us. After all, they know that our actions are
aimed toward peace. By siding with Iran, the Europeans would serve their
own and our interests. But they will suffer only damage if they oppose
us. For our people is strong and determined.
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- The Europeans risk losing their position
in the Middle East entirely, and they are ruining their reputation in other
parts of the world. The others will think that the Europeans aren't capable
of solving problems.
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- SPIEGEL: Mr. President, we thank you
for this interview.
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- Interview conducted by Stefan Aust,
Gerhard Spörl and Dieter Bednarz in Tehran.
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- http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/0,1518,418660-2,00.html
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